以色列駐華大使潘綺瑞書面專訪全文

【明報專訊】本報記者透過以色列駐港總領事館向以色列駐華大使潘綺瑞（Irit Ben-Abba）提出書面訪問邀請，獲英文（原文）及簡體中文（翻譯）的回覆。本報將其答案整理如下：

○問題一：以色列如何理解中方在以色列-哈馬斯戰爭的立場，尤其是中方11月30日發表的最新《立場文件》？中方看來更關注巴以衝突的終極「兩國方案」，多於只談以哈戰爭，以方對這種立場有否不滿，或這會否影響到以中關係？

Q1: How did Israel understand the position of China on its war with Hamas, especially on its latest “Position Paper” published on Nov 30? China seemed to focus more on an ultimate Two-State solution of Israel-Palestinian conflicts rather just focus on Israel-Hamas war. Are there any discontent from Israeli side on such position or will it affect Israel-China relations?

答：中國於2023年11月30日發布的關於解決巴以衝突的立場文件並未體現應有的平衡。這份文件絲毫未提這場戰爭的起因；絲毫未提哈馬斯這一公認的恐怖組織於10月7日對無辜的以色列平民、嬰兒、兒童、女性、男性、老年人進行了恐怖屠殺。它並未提及哈馬斯殘忍地將平民從家中、從露天音樂節上劫持，現在仍有138名人質被困加沙；並未提及以色列的自衛權和邊境安全權，這邊境是中國承認的，屬於主權國家以色列。一份和平倡議應該表明，哈馬斯才是打破直到10月6日之前長期停火狀態的一方，2000名恐怖分子於10月7日周六早上毀壞以色列和加沙間的邊境牆，侵犯以色列領土主權，闖入邊境附近的24個社區和村莊，最遠進到以色列內20公里。他們一路射殺，使用火箭彈、卡拉什尼科夫機槍、手榴彈等多種武器，殺死1200多名各年齡段的以色列和他國平民、士兵，造成上萬人受傷，犯下戰爭罪，違反了國際人道主義法和戰爭法的所有準則。而中國的和平提案中並未提到這些恐怖行徑，對哈馬斯這一恐怖組織犯下的罪行也未做出譴責。這份文件沒有表明「中國會對任何人在任何地點犯下的恐怖行徑做出譴責」這一鮮明的中方立場，而這一立場明確體現在2023年2月發布的《全球安全倡議》當中。

這份文件未提及以色列有權拆除哈馬斯所有的軍事與民事能力，從而確保10月7日不再重演，將加沙人民從哈馬斯17年的軍事統治中解救出來；也沒有提到現在呼籲停火會讓哈馬斯繼續掌權並惡意威脅以色列公民的安全，同時整個地區也將繼續被恐怖統治。目前仍然有人質被扣押在加沙，現在停火會阻礙人質釋放工作。

以色列對中國從哈馬斯戰爭開始以來的官方立場感到失望，中國避談哈馬斯犯下了史無前例的恐怖屠殺；避談哈馬斯發動了這場戰爭這一事實。哈馬斯應該對10月7日的屠殺負責，並立即無條件釋放扣押在加沙的所有人質。中方立場沒有認識到，這場戰爭的對象不是巴勒斯坦人民，而是恐怖組織哈馬斯。在哈馬斯的統治被瓦解之前，以巴問題無法得到解決。

儘管中國對以色列-哈馬斯戰爭持偏見態度，但雙邊關係仍保持良好並將繼續良好勢頭，兩國基本利益也毫不動搖。

A: China’s Position paper on Resolving the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict, published on 30th Nov. 2023, is surely not a well balanced position paper as it should be. in the proposal there is no mention whatsoever, what instigated this war, no mention whatsoever of the horrible massacre that Hamas, as a recognized terrorist organization, inflicted on innocent Israeli civilians, babies, children, women, men and the elderly, on the 7th of October, no mention that Hamas brutally hijacked civilians from their homes, from a music party in the open air, and still holds 138 of them as hostages in Gaza till this very day, no mention at all of Israel right to self defence and security in the borders that are recognized by China as well as the borders of sovereign Israel. A peace proposal should have indicated that Hamas was the one to brake the long cease fire achieved till the 6th of October, with 2000 terrorists, breaking the border fence between Israel and Gaza on Saturday the 7th of October, obstructing the territorial sovereign territory of Israel, entering into 24 communities and towns along the border and as far as 20 Km inside Israel, shooting everyone on the way, using RPGs, Kalachnikov guns, hand grenades etc, killing more than 1200 Israeli and foreign civilians and soldiers, at all ages, injuring 10 thousand of them, committing war crimes, against all norms of the international humanitarian law and the law of the war. No mention of these horrific atrocities appears in the Chinese peace proposal. There is no condemnation at all of Hamas being a terror organization committing all these atrocities. No mention of China’s condemnation of terror acts no matter where and by whom, which is the pronounced Chinese position as we have clearly noticed in the Global Security Initiative published in February 2023.

No mention of Israel’s right to dismantle Hamas from all its military and civilian capabilities, in order that the 7th October will not repeat itself and to free the Gazans themselves from the military rule of Hamas over Gaza in the past 17 years. No mention that calling for a cease fire now, will keep Hamas in power, and will allow them to continue threatening viciously the security of Israel its citizens, and the whole region as well, will keep the terror run state in tact. A cease fire now will prevent the release of the hostages that are still held in captivity in Gaza.

Israel is disappointed with the official position of China with regards to the war with Hamas from the first day of the war, as it shuns away from any reference to the unprecedented terror massacre conducted by Hamas, to the fact that Hamas started this war, that Hamas should be accountable to the massacre on the October 7th and to the immediate release with no precondition of all hostages it holds in Gaza. The Chinese position fails to realize that this is not a war against the Palestinians but a war against Hamas as a terror organization and unless Hamas is dismantled from its governance capabilities, no solution can be found to the Israeli Palestinian problem.

Despite China’s biased position of the Israel Hamas war, bilateral relations are good and will stay as such, since the basic interests of both our countries are strong and will stay as such.

○問題二：以色列如何理解在中國社交媒體出現的特定反猶言論？以色列會否將其連繫到北京的官方立場？

Q2: How did Israel understand certain antisemitist opinion in Chinese social media? Would Israel link them to official position of Beijing?

答：中國的社交媒體上掀起了一波批評以色列在加沙進行地面攻擊的浪潮，其規模和嚴厲程度遠超當地媒體過往的反以反猶言論。我們將其歸結為世界範圍內的一次重要的反猶反以言論浪潮，有一些純粹是由全球範圍內的BDS團體（Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions，[即]抵制、撤資、制裁）大量出資操控的，除了BDS之外，世界範圍內還有大量的人群或為宣傳目的、或因愚蠢無知，利用缺乏管理的社交媒體肆意傳播仇恨言論。不過，令我們欣慰的是，10月30日，中國外交部發言人向中文社交媒體的大V及其粉絲做出重要提示：「中國法律明確規定，禁止利用網絡宣揚極端主義、民族仇恨和歧視暴力等信息」。我們希望中國當局遵守這一法律，對散布無端無恥反猶言論者依法追究責任。以色列希望中國加入全球行列，譴責一切形式的反猶主義，這項官方發起的運動已有許多國家加入其中。

A: There was a wave of criticism of Israel’s ground attack in Gaza in the Chinese social media, which was substantially larger and harsher than anti Israel and antisemitic discourse in the local media channels in the past. We attribute this cycle to a major antisemitic and anti Israel discourse around the world, some of which was pure manipulation heavily financed by BDS groups globally and not only by BDS groups, sheer propaganda, stupidity and ignorance by huge groups of people around the world using the social media, which is non controllable, to spread hate discourse indiscriminately. We are satisfied that China has through the spokesperson of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on October 30th, issued an important reminder to the Chinese social media followers and influencers, that “China’s laws unequivocally prohibit to disseminating information on extremism, ethnic hatred, discrimination and violence via the internet”. We hope that the Chinese authorities abide with this law and will hold anyone who spreads antisemitic baseless shameless statements accountable based on this law. Israel hopes that China joins the global call to condemn antisemitism in all its forms, an official campaign that was joined by many countries already.

○問題三：根據本報跟不同國家專家所做的訪問，許多國家也許在10月7日的事件中對以色列抱有一定程度的理解和同情。然而，自以色列在加沙展開對哈馬斯的報復後，隨着加沙傷亡人數高企，對巴勒斯坦人的同情開始變成主流。以色列是否理解國際輿論的這種變化，對此又會如何回應？

Q3: According to our interviews with experts from different countries, many countries may have certain understanding and sympathy to Israel on the Oct 7 event. However, as Israel started revenge against Hamas in Gaza, the sympathy to Palestinians became dominant when the casualties in Gaza became so high. Did Israel understand such change in international opinion and what would Israel do to respond to that?

答：要指出，以色列戰爭的對象是極端的聖戰組織哈馬斯，而非巴勒斯坦人民。哈馬斯向以色列南部村莊發起了一場殘酷襲擊，屠殺綁架了嬰兒、婦女、兒童、男性和老年人，犯下了反人類罪行。以色列會盡一切努力帶回仍被哈馬斯扣押的人質，包括11個月大的Kfir Bibas及其家人，同時以色列會採取行動，確保哈馬斯對以色列和加沙人民不再構成威脅。我們的地面行動將會繼續，直到消除哈馬斯的軍事和行政能力，使其無法再統治加沙地帶。以色列不會再容忍南部邊境存在一個恐怖主義機器，即收到國際社會大量資助的戰爭機器哈馬斯。

在國際社會，以色列得到眾多國家支持，他們一致認同，恐怖組織哈馬斯對以色列、巴勒斯坦人民、整個地區甚至其他地區都構成了威脅。

以色列遵守國際法，食物、水和醫療物資這些用於巴勒斯坦人民的人道主義援助被持續運往加沙，我們也在盡一切努力避免對巴勒斯坦人民造成傷害。不幸的是，自允加沙統治者的哈馬斯卻在千方百計地去除對該地人民的保護。他們把學校、幼兒園、醫院和清真寺作為武器基地；將指揮總部設在平民建築當中。哈馬斯將供給加沙的燃料用於其地下的恐怖之城，這是一個只服務恐怖分子的隧道之城、是哈馬斯的軍事之城。供給其人民的燃料、水和食物被哈馬斯切斷。他們利用加沙平民作為人盾，在以色列開始在加沙開展地面行動後的幾周時間裏，證據已清晰可見。無論是在戰爭中還是和平時期，平民都應受到保護，但在哈馬斯邪惡統治加沙的17年當中，這一直都不是哈馬斯領導層所考慮的問題。他們只有一個要義：打擊並摧毀以色列，這也明確體現在其1988年憲章當中。

A: It is important to say that Israel is at war with the radical, jihadist terror organization, Hamas, and not with the Palestinian people. Hamas, that initiated a brutal attack against the southern villages of Israel, massacring and kidnapping babies, women, children, men and elderly, committing crimes against humanity. Israel will do anything to bring back the hostages that Hamas is still holding, including 11 month old Kfir Bibas and his family, and will act to ensure that Hamas is no longer a threat to our people and the Gazans as well. Israel will continue its ground operation till Hamas will be dismantled from its military and administrative capabilities and will not rule over Gaza any longer. Israel will no longer endure a terror machine entity, meaning Hamas, a war machine that was heavily financed by the international community, along its southern border.

Israel receives the support of many countries in the international community, and they share the understanding that the terror organization, Hamas, is a threat to Israel, to the Palestinians and to the entire region and beyond.

Israel is operating in accordance with the international law, humanitarian aid continues to enter Gaza with food, water and medical supplies for the benefit of the Palestinians, and we do every effort to keep them out of any harm. Sadly, Hamas, which recognizes itself as the ruler of Gaza, has done everything possible not to protect the Palestinians of Gaza. Hamas uses schools, kindergartens, hospitals, mosques as weapons chaches, they have their command headquarters inside civilian buildings, they use the fuel supplied to Gaza to supply their terror subterranean city, the city of tunnels which caters for the terrorists only, the undercity which become the city of the military of Hamas, while preventing fuel, water and food from their own people. Hamas uses the Gazans as their human shields evidence that was shown so clearly in the last couple of weeks since the ground operation by the Israeli military started in Gaza. In war as in peace, civilians should be protected, this has not been the ambition of Hamas’s leadership during all the 17 years of its vicious rule over Gaza. Their thrust is only one: to fight and destroy Israel as their charter of 1988 indicates so very clearly.

（以色列-哈馬斯戰爭）